On Friday evening March 12, of the Chicago March Meet held in Lombard IL, Joe Giannovario, publisher of O Scale Trains Magazine, moderated a panel discussion on the state of kits and kit building in O Scale today.
From right to left in the photo, the panel consisted of Roger Malinowski, manufacturer of plaster cast structures; Keith Wiseman, a kit manufacturer who purchases the remnants of defunct companies in order to continue their product lines for modelers. Also present was Glenn Guerra of Mullet River Model Works, maker of turn-of-the 20th Century, wooden freight car and structure kits using state-of-the-art laser cutting technology and Jon Cagle of Southern Car and Foundry. SC&F makes resin freight car kits such as a 40ft Southern Pacific Harriman RPO car in O Scale and a five course radial tank car in HO Scale. For an hour, this panel provided an excellent discussion of the state of kit-building in the hobby. Because the discussion covered a lot of ground, I’ve edited my recorded notes down considerably and focused on kit building. Here are some highlights.
Roger:
“Well, the basis of this talk is where’s the hobby heading. I actually went to the narrow gauge end of it because they seemed more detail oriented with everything, whether it’s a structure, the track, the steam, and everything like that. But it’s changed dramatically because of Bachmann and their On30. Brass engines in the narrow gauge community, they just went away.
I don’t know whether our time becomes more valuable or we have less of it, but people were looking more for ‘I just want to pick this up and put it on the track and do narrow gauge.’ So Bachmann filled a huge niche there but along with that it’s also changed everything that say, myself and other people in the narrow gauge community had to do too, because they didn’t want a craftsman kit in the narrow gauge communities, or maybe any communities, to be a box full of wood and a paper that tells you how to cut them and put them together. So I do laser cuttings and it’s a funny balance there because the people there, they still want that craftsman look but they really don’t want to invest the time to do it.”
Keith:
“We manufacture a few O Scale standard gauge kits. Most of the stuff we had that is maintenance-of-way that was narrow gauge prototypes, was the same thing used on the standard gauge railroad but most people targeted it as being narrow gauge. But much of what we do is also towards the fact of detailing things. It’s amazing to me the number of people that come up to you at shows and say: ‘Oh, yeah, you’re the one that had those parts I needed for that kit I was building.’ So I think people are still building kits.”
Glenn:
“Well, I produce kits. I’m fairly new at it. Only about 7 years and I was an O Scale modeler so I chose O Scale as a primary thing because I kind of understood what was out there and wanted to see what was on the market when I got into it I didn’t have any previous equipment or any patterns or molds to start with. So I started with a clean sheet of paper and wanted to see what we could do with some of the technologies that were out there and I’ve had a lot of fun with it.”
Jon:
“Well, along with Glenn here, the one standard gauge car that I have out on the market is a 40 foot RPO and the goal behind SC&F or what my vision is, is to kind of expand that because I myself am an O Scale modeler. I’ve got some buddies that model across the whole spectrum like military modeling: jets, armor, things like that, and I’ve seen how that industry and that modeling skill set-with the resin components and the etched metal components-it seems like the military modeling industry is out years in front of us. I look at that as kind of a benchmark; to bring some of that over to model railroading. I mean, there’s quite a bit in narrow gauge, Keith has the market right there and a few others, but when it comes to O Scale standard gauge it’s just very slim.
Joe comments on the skill aspects of kits:
“It’s not just model railroading. When I was much younger, much younger, I used to build model cars. In fact, I have this really nice scar here from opening a hood on a ‘61 Thunderbird with a razor knife that slipped. Nowadays kids can buy model cars that are already painted. I don’t see the sense in that and I don’t understand. To me, that’s a waste of time because there’s no skill building there. So when I put together a kit from Glenn, he’s pushing my limits with bending up etched brass, and the stuff Jon’s talking about. I built Jon’s 40 foot RPO and his little etchings drove me nuts but they were nice.”
Carrying the idea of modeling skills further, Glenn Guerra made the following suggestion:
“There are various clinics that we go to. What I understand in England, (from) the guys that have gone to the Telford show, rather than having a specific clinic, what they have around the perimeter of the main room is a series of people seated at desks. This guy’s an expert on scenery. This guy’s an expert on brass work. That guy’s an expert on re-motoring or something like that and each is on duty for like three hours. If you want to know something, go and talk to him. I think that’s a neat idea. What do you guys think? You know, rather than go to a seminar, just go sit down and talk to the guy. You know, how do you do this?”
Joe adds: “That’s one reason why I’ve tried to focus O Scale Trains Magazine on model building on all different levels, not just craftsman level but not just for babes either, but everything in between to push people a little bit farther.”
A question from the audience centered on the future of detail parts and castings such as those from Grandt Line. Keith Wiseman responded:
“Oh yeah, and still available. I mean Grandt Line is still out there. They offer a bunch of components and things.”
Roger Malinowski adds: “It’s changed. Laser cutters have changed some of that. In my kits, I can make the window because I can make the individual sashes and the frames and all that from individual components and make them fit the building I want.”
Glenn Guerra observed that part of the problem with detail parts is getting the hobby shops to carry them.
“A few hobby stores that are still carrying a full line of detail parts, believe it or not, are doing well and the theory is this: I don’t make much money on this $5 package here that I just sold this guy but I made him happy and the next time he needs something he comes to my store and that, you know, this is the part that everybody that owns a business is missing. They look at it, as I’m not making any money on that $5 item, clear all that crap out. All I want to do is carry $300 locomotives and mark them down 20% and give them away and wonder why I haven’t made any money. I was talking to one storeowner and I said ‘How are you doing on all this stripwood and styrene and all that crap like that? Everybody else is getting rid of that stuff.’ He said: ‘I order three things every Monday morning, Evergreen styrene, paint, and Woodland Scenics. I’m living on those three things.” So I think there’s still a future there. But more and more, especially in O Scale because the market is so small, hobby stores won’t carry our products period. You know, the only way you’re going to get them is to either come to this show or buy it online. That alone I think will keep it going. O Scale is a cottage industry, we’re all working out of our garage or spare bedroom.
Jim Harper, the former owner of High Sierra Models, was in the audience and made the observation that a hobby shop tends to stock what the owner is interested in most, which may or may not be what the clientele is interested in. “You have to interact with the people.” according to Glenn Guerra who noted that this is a people business. Keith Wiseman made note of the fact that as a businessperson in this hobby, you have to be “extremely knowledgeable in what you’re selling and what you’re dealing with… I know what a cross-compound pump and a single phase was and what a retainer valve was and you’re not going to find a Hobbytown USA guy can answer that question.”
Many modelers have no idea what is involved in getting a kit ready for market. Glenn Guerra gave some insight into the process.
“Let me get back to your question. You want to get something made. You know, people call up all the time, why don’t you make this? You know, why don’t you make that? This is my favorite caboose. I said okay, send me some information. On one of them I got an old piece of instruction from an Ambroid kit and I said you want me to make a kit off of this?
The other thing is (that) to develop a kit is a huge investment in time. Now if you’re going to make injection molds of plastic parts, there’s a huge dollar investment in the tooling. We don’t have that kind of money but we’re willing to stay up late at the computer designing things and drawing and stuff like that. We’re willing to invest our time. We don’t have cash to invest, so we end up having to try and redraw something. To do one of my caboose kits takes 200 hours minimum from the time I start until the time I have the first kit in the box. I mean it’s a lot of work. And most of that’s drawing. I’m not making patterns like he has you know to cast parts. Every type of kit technology has its pros and cons. I guess what I’m getting at is if you want something made you’d better come in with all the pictures and all the data and all the drawings, and better yet, if you’ve got it drawn up, you’re a long way ahead.”
From another part of the discussion, an observation Keith Wiseman made fits in well here: “I think a lot of it is just having the vision of what works…Somebody is sitting down and doing absolutely perfect work, pouring a form and throwing it in the trash can and the fifth or sixth one that they do or a combination of the third and the fifth one out comes that perfect part.”
To wrap up this article, I’ll close with a subject we don’t hear enough of: Friendship in the hobby. Keith Wiseman said it best:
“Who in here thinks that the one of their best friends is one that they see here every year? Yeah, okay, all of us, all of us, and I think that’s a common goal that pulls us all together and it’s just kind of the community aspect of the hobby that keeps us all going.
I want to commend these gentlemen and all the others that still produce kits in any form. It is good to have kits in various stages of completion as well as different mediums. It is amazing with some patience and deligence as well as talent, one can take kits of any difficulty whether a shake in a box or a nearly completed kit and make them into a piece of art. I love all kinds of challenges.
Keep up the good work
I agree completely Rio. Kits provide an opportunity to learn the essential skills needed in this hobby.
As a new-comer to building kits my perspective may be a bit different that of you veterans.I find the largest obstacle has to do with knowledge.I consider myself skilled enough to take on kits of various difficulty but getting or even knowing what I may need, Well that’s a bigger question.
The need for knowledge starts with what’s appropriate for the era the modeler chooses. Next is the knowledge of what various forms the proto was produced in and under what road name ect… Then it comes to another large obstacle in the way of who makes what I may need. What kits are available? Who makes them? Where can I get them? Its items like this that stand in the way of doing more kits than anything else. Cost although important is a secondary concern. As long as a kits cost is comparable to a product like say an Atlas boxcar I for one would rather have the more detailed kit.
To my mind the manufactures would do themselves a great service to enter into a joint venture on a catalogue. One that reads like an encyclopedia featuring a subject like boxcars. It would give a brief history and detail some of the different configurations it was offered in . It would then list the various offerings from the manufacturers specific to that type of car and its details. This would be a godsend to a modelers like me to have all that information in one place! I wouldn’t need to become a train historian or have yrs of experience in finding all the items I would need. Do this and the art of kit building could get a serious boost. As an “O”gauge modeler I have enough to contend with creating a mini world in detail without having to delve into who makes what for what kit on which road name in what yr…( my head hurts just thinking about it).All I want to do is use my creative side to make detailed items that would be acceptable for the layout at hand. It may be hard to see what a daunting task putting details like these together is for modelers like me but I assure you it is just that,daunting. And its a task that curbs my desire to build more kits.
As far as the manufacturers go, I believe they get caught up in the making of great products and just assume if you build a better mousetrap the world will beat a path to your door. I hope they will take some advice, Pave a road to your door and put out a Sign! It seems to me the Model Train industry is unique in the vast number of producers that could be considered “Cottage industries”. Although not all fall into this category many do and even more suffer from the same lack of exposure to their potential customers in an easy to access forum. We as modelers need some congealing and condensing their products into a form than is easy to use,access,understand and scan for ideas. I believe an encyclopedia/catalogue may do just that!
John Gizzi
Hi John,
Thanks for the comments. As one matures in the hobby, priorities tend to change.The basic modeling skills have been mastered to some degree and then, what comes next?
Part of the fun for many, and it seems to also be a growing trend in the hobby, is prototype research. As you learn more and more about the prototype, one tends to become more discerning in modeling it. But as you mentioned, where and how to find the info you want and or need?
An all in one type of resource as you outlined would be wonderful, but very hard to compile, due to the enormous number of variations among classes of cars and railroads. Every railroad’s mechanical department it seems, would put their own twist on a so called “standard” car design. And then there are maintenance and rebuilding programs where new hardware would be fitted and so on. You can see how quickly the number of variables builds up.
As a step in the direction of your thinking, I wonder if having an all in one detail set of ladders, grabirons, the correct running board and so on to properly outfit a manufactured car would be a viable option.
Some kit makers do give a history of their various offerings, but that depends on the knowledge of the kit’s supplier and their resources. Research cost money, whether you do it or hire it out, and most O Scale kit makers work on limited funds. But your point is well taken, we could do better.
Mike Cougill
Hey Mike,
I didn’t intend for the suggestion to be an All encompassing volume about any given rolling stock type. I understand how such an endeavor would probably encompass several volumes. But I still believe a book covering even the most basic of proto’s AND the references to the manufacturers offerings would be very well received. Lets look at the target consumer for such a book,after all this subject does deal with selling to the market and expanding the consumer base.
Lets say this new book deals with the most basic of details and with the most common of road names(if there is such a thing). To many of the accomplished modelers it wouldn’t have much to offer BUT many of them are all ready well versed in research and as you pointed out probably wouldn’t be able to cover the material to a satisfactory depth to satisfy them anyway. However, to a guy like me it would be a great help. I’m just starting and have an entire layout to populate. I’m also a bit less discerning when it comes to compromises. I could glean items that would look appropriate on my layout. Even though such items may not be exactly historically correct. I could live with the discrepancies. If I’m currently comfortable with plastic, I could choose the plastic details offered by listed manufacturers. If not available I could try something new like brass.Or, I could pick something close to it from a unrelated prototype from elsewhere in the book that was close enough for me. I also believe such a book could help manufacturers fill the voids for the items not offered by pointing said voids out. Also it would aide in showing the novice what type of cars may have been seen on a layout like theirs. Like I said Its not obvious to modelers that can already do the research but guys like me need all the help we can get.I’m wondering if an existing book on a subject like box cars, hoppers, passenger cars ect… could be republished with a parts list woven in. It would take a lot less work and give new life to older publications. Another idea would be to publish a pamphlet that correlated to a given publication. I would love to see either.
I guess I’m trying to show how to expand the customer base by appealing to those who are interested in building kits but lack the basic knowledge to peruse it. As I see It,its a win,win for the manufacturers and I don’t see a down side for them.
Who knows , This could be the start!!
Hi John,
Well your ideas are certainly worth considering. Are you aware of the Essential Freight Car series that RMC ran for the past several years? It had a format similar to what you’re proposing only it was mainly directed to HO products. I believe the series has run its course due to some issues the author is experiencing. Another source that may fit the bill for you is the Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia. An ongoing series of volumes published once or twice a year, it covers one or more freight cars in regard to their history, variations among different roads and often some modeling possibilities. It is an excellent resource. Do a search online and you should be able to find it. We would love to do something of this sort in the magazine, if we could find an author to step up for O Scale.
Mike
Thank you to these guys for continuing to produce kits for people like me to hack away at. As a result of the kit building discussion in OST I was motivated to try to put together one of the Intermountain composite gons I bought in the 90’s. This was pretty delicate work and I had to substitute wire for some of the really thin cast plastic or resin parts, because I was breaking them. I think this is part of skill development.
Thanks for the comment Von. Whether you’re learning a new skill or refreshing an old one, failure to some degree is a fact of life and nothing to be upset about. I’ve tossed more “failures” in the trash over the years than I can remember. The key for me was in trying to figure out where I went wrong and learn what I had to learn. Congratulations on tackling the kit. I bet you enjoyed every minute of it.
Mike Cougill
I managed to finish this one (box of sticks v1.0)—its not contest quality but I like it and I’m keeping it. Would post a photo but not certain how that is done here.
Hi Von,
Thanks for the photo and e-mail. I’ll have to look into whether or not people can post photos to the blog because I’m not certain. It’s not that hard, but I haven’t done it in a while myself, so I need a refresher course every time. {:-(
Mike